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 Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie

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PhantomnessFay
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:58 am

Here are a few verses from Lord Byron's 1819 Epic Poem Don Juan. This is from the first canto. The Roman numerals indicate the verse.

I

I want a hero: an uncommon want,
When every year and month sends forth a new one,
Till, after cloying the gazettes with cant,
The age discovers he is not the true one;
Of such as these I should not care to vaunt,
I'll therefore take our ancient friend Don Juan --
We all have seen him, in the pantomime,
Sent to the devil somewhat ere his time.

VIII
In Seville was he born, a pleasant city,
Famous for oranges and women -- he
Who has not seen it will be much to pity,
So says the proverb -- and I quite agree;
Of all the Spanish towns is none more pretty,
Cadiz perhaps -- but that you soon may see;
Don Juan's parents lived beside the river,
A noble stream, and call'd the Guadalquivir.

XX
Now Donna Inez had, with all her merit,
A great opinion of her own good qualities;
Neglect, indeed, requires a saint to bear it,
And such, indeed, she was in her moralities;
But then she had a devil of a spirit,
And sometimes mix'd up fancies with realities,
And let few opportunities escape
Of getting her liege lord into a scrape.

XXI
This was an easy matter with a man
Oft in the wrong, and never on his guard;
And even the wisest, do the best they can,
Have moments, hours, and days, so unprepared,
That you might "brain them with their lady's fan;"[8]
And sometimes ladies hit exceeding hard,
And fans turn into falchions in fair hands,
And why and wherefore no one understands.



Don Juan is generally depicted as a rogue, but in some instance he could be the victim of women seducing him. This character had adventures in Turkey with the Sultan and his harem. Such similarities to our favorite Phantom.

With killing of the father of lover Donna Inez, we find a lot of the character of Erik; taking a life without remorse. As seen in Faust, the opera most prevalent in Leroux's The Phantom of the Opera, the devil comes for Don Juan as he did for Faust.

It would seem that Erik thought of himself as Don Juan, seduced of women, forced to kill and sooner or later, the Devil would claim his soul. After all he considered his life beneath the opera house as hell. Fitting analogy wouldn't you say?
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:47 pm

I agree. He did say he was "kind of a Don Juan." He probably just loved women in general and it must have been hell for him to never find one to love him. Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:58 pm

I agree that he probably envied Don Juan, and wished that he could be like that with women. He was never able to find a woman to love him as he loved, and that's heartbreaking for anyone. Everyone should have someone to love them!
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:24 pm

Too true! Human beings are just obsessed with physical appearances. It's sad, really.

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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:47 am

We haven't had and real discussions or quizes in a while. This little trivia quiz is on the original novel. Let's see how you score?

1. What language was the book originally written in?

a. English
b. Spanish
c. German
d. French

2. What was the name of the young soprano who heard her Angel of Music?

a. Carlotta
b. Melisande
c. Antoinette De Chartres
d. Christine Daae


3. What was Raoul's older brother's name?

a. Jacques
b. Philippe
c. Jean-Luc
d. Marc Antoine

4. What was the name of the prima ballerina?

a. Carlotta
b. Helene
c. Donella
d. Sorelli

5. When Raoul and the Persian entered Erik's home, where did they end up?

a. Erik's living room
b. Christine's bedroom
c. The bathroom
d. Torture Chamber

6. The novel takes place in what town?

a. Le Havre
b. Marseille
c. Paris
d. Nice

7. Erik hid from Christine and Raoul behind what statue?

a. Zeus' Thunderbolt
b. Apollo's Lyre
c. Athena
d. Pegasus

8. What were the names of the two managers who were leaving the opera at the story's beginning?

a. Debienne and Poligny
b. Firmin and Andre
c. Moncharmin and Richard
d. Poligny and Moncharmin

9. What adjective does Erik use to describe Carlotta's throat when he is throwing his voice in Christine's bedroom?

a. Silver
b. Crystal
c. Perfect
d. Strong

10. What was the text of the advertisement published in the Epoque?

a. Erik is dead.
b. Christine is dead.
c. Erik lives.
d. Christine and Raoul were married.
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:46 pm

I've missed the quizzes. They're so much fun Smile

1 - D - French
2 - D - Christine Daae
3 - B - Phillippe
4 - D - Sorelli
5 - D - Torture Chamber
6 - C - Paris
7 - B - Apollo's Lyre
8 - A - Debienne and Poligny
9 - D - strong
10 - A - Erik is dead
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:59 am

Gabby81 you are good. 100% correct. Brava!

Let's see how you do with this one.


1. Who was the only person (in the beginning) to have seen the opera ghost?

a. Sorelli
b. Giry
c. James
d. Joseph Buquet

2. Who was Sorelli seeing?

a. Philippe de Chagny
b. The Phantom
c. Joseph Buquet
d. Raoul de Chagny

3. Where did Christine tell Raoul of her adventure with Erik?

a. Apollo's Statue
b. On Stage
c. Apollo’s Crib
d. Apollo’s Lyre


4. What does the Phantom use to kill his victims?

_______________________________________ (two words)


5. When the Persian and Raoul go to Erik's house, where do they end up?

a. Christine’s room
b. His living room
c. Torture chamber
d. Boat

6. Who did Christine believe Erik was?

a. The Opera Ghost
b. Her father
c. The Angel of Music
d. The Phantom

7. Where did Gaston believe that Erik's body should be buried?

a. A common grave
b. Nowhere, he should stay where he is
c. National Academy of Music
d. Underneath the stage

8. When Erik gave Christine the choice of turning the grasshopper or the scorpion, which one did she choose?

________________________________________ (one word)


9. What would happen if Christine turned the grasshopper?

a. Erik would get very mad
b. It would fill the torture chamber with water, killing Raoul and the Persian
c. It would blow up the Opera House
d. Erik would die

10. What was the song that Erik played to Christine on her father's grave?

a. The Phantom of the Opera
b. The Resurrection of Lazarus
c. The Resurrection of Father
d. Music of the Night

11. Who is Darius?

a. Persian's Servant
b. Christine's Servant
c. Raoul's Servant
d. Phantom's Friend

12. Who is the famous baritone?

a. Ublado Piangi
b. Carolus Futa
c. Carolus Fonta
d. Carolus Hilly
13. While Raoul and the Persian are in the torture chamber and talking to Christine, what is the reason she gives for Erik chaining her to the wall?

a. She tried to kill herself
b. She attacked him
c. She tried to run away
d. He didn't trust her

14. When Christine turned the scorpion, what immediately happened?

a. Erik lassoed Raoul
b. The opera house blew up
c. Water filled the torture chamber, soaking the barrels
d. A priest popped out of the wall and married them

15. Where was the body of Buquet found?

a. The fourth cellar
b. The third cellar
c. On stage
d. Christine's dressing room

16. How did Erik torture the Persian and Raoul in his torture chamber?

a. Made Christine scream
b. Used medieval devices
c. Used the mirrors to create mirages, and cause immense heat
d. Lassoed them to the tree

17. What did Erik promise Madame Giry?

a. She would be rich beyond her wildest dreams
b. Her daughter would be Empress
c. He wouldn't kill her
d. She would have her job for life

18. What does Erik give Christine that he makes her promise never to part with?

a. His burned mask
b. His musical score
c. A wedding ring
d. His mother's necklace

19. Where did Erik know the Persian from?

a. Paris
b. India
c. France
d. Mazenderan

20. What did the note in the paper say once Erik had died?

a. Erik still lives
b. Erik is dead
c. My music will flourish
d. I love you Christine.
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:55 am

Reading your posts here I thought to pop on and with this blog I did ages ago:


What role did Don Juan play in Leroux’s novel? As I work on
my historical romance, ADELRUNE, (which uses music extensively) I research many operas and composers of the 19th century. It made me reflect on my research for MADRIGAL and Leroux’s use of opera in his novel. Don Juan was the embodiment of everything that Erik wanted to be but could not be. It was a bitter and cynical diary.


Erik clearly states this opera was not a work ‘inspired by wine and the trivial loves and vices that God finally punishes...’ So what was it to Erik, if not a reflection of himself through his art?

Mozart’s most famous opera, Don Giovanni is similar to Erik's Don Juan (with the exception of the lack of poetic lyrics put forth by Don Lorenzo, who wrote the libretto for Don Giovanni). Don Giovanni is the story of a grand lover who scorns women as much as he wants to be loved by them and who is ultimately sentenced to burn in hell for his sins.

Erik's music held his passion as did his Don Juan. It represented him. He says to Christine he would play Mozart to start her tears flowing and give her honorable thoughts, but warns that Don Juan ‘sears’ yet he, as the Don Juan, ‘cannot be struck down by the fires of heaven.’ This says that Don Juan (Erik) can evoke all the deepest passion and desires of the world, yet cannot be held by the laws of God. Don Juan, like Don Giovanni, was above the human race.


Did Erik think he was above the human race? The original novel shows a man who at times shunned the human races as much as he wanted to
embrace it. He did not abide by the rules of love, (kidnapping is not the way to glean a woman’s affection), or the boundaries of right or wrong like a normal man…

Don Juan also mimic’s Erik’s physical vision of himself ‘there is music so horrifying it consumes all those who come near it.’ (Again a reference to music that sears or burns) Erik lived in a sort of hell. Hell was a theme in the book with references to Charon and Avernus and in the above line, to me at least, speaking of a man who is so horrifying he can consume all who dare to come near or think of him.

Was Christine not consumed by her obsessed with him once she found out the Voice was a mere man?

Christine knew Erik's music reflected Erik himself. She speaks of his music and his Voice when hearing Don Juan played: ‘As for Erik his voice is like thunder. Each sound was affected by his vengeful soul, which frightfully augmented its power. Love, jealousy, hate, burst from us in narrowing cries...’

What I like about that sentence is Leroux’s use of the word ‘us’ as if he knew there would be others controlled, consumed, commanded and captivated by Erik and his music.


Copyrighted material folks.. just FYI!


Mav
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:22 pm

Thanks so much for the information. The more I learn about this story, the more I want to learn Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:58 am

What happened to my 20 question quiz? We all got sidetracked with Don Juan. Come on. Someone give it a try.
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:13 pm

My bad....I totally forgot. I will give it a whirl!
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:24 pm

1 - d - Joseph Buquet
2 - a - Philippe de Chagny
3 - d - Apollo's lyre
4 - punjab lasso
5 - c - torture chamber
6 - c - the angel of music
7 - c - National Academy of Music
8 - Scorpion
9 - c - It would blow up the opera house
10 - b - the resurrection of Lazarus
11 - a - the Persians servant
12 - A - Ublado Piangi
13 - a - she tried to kill herself
14 - c - water filled the torture chamber, soaking the barrels
15 - a - the fourth cellar
16 - c - used mirrors to create mirages and cause intense heat
17 - b - her daughter would be empress
18 - c - a wedding ring
19 - d - Mazenderan
20 - b - Erik is dead.

How'd I do????
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:07 am

You did very well with a score of 18 out of 20 correct.

The ones you missed :

12 - A - Ublado Piangi
Correct answer: c. Carolus Fonta


15 - a - the fourth cellar
Correct answer: b. The third cellar

Good job!

****************************************************

In response to Mav's Don Juan post, nice analysis, but I suppose my thought was simpler than that. Don Juan according to Lord Byron Don Juan was a womanizer without compassion or thought for the female target. He lured them in and took what he wanted. In the end, the devil took him to Hell. But was he guilty? Or was he the victim?

Certainly Erik's life appeared like hell from the beginning of the novel to the end, but again, I see him as a victim. Obviously he knew kidnapping was not the way to woo a female. This was the only way to get Christine's attention. Clearly she had many opportunities to leave Erik, but didn't. Yes, she banged her head against the wall repeatedly in a vain attempt to kill herself, but that was out of fear and confusion.

In the end, after Erik released her and Raoul, we see the pitiful creature he really was. Like Don Juan, he was seduced by a beautiful woman and therefore, because of his weakness, he was led to that fiery inferno most Christians fear. Not saying the woman is the cause, only that these unfortunate men could not deal with such intense emotions.


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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:43 am

When we are children the things we are exposed to are taken up naturally, and as we age, it becomes more difficult to alter what has been imprinted/impressed upon us.

I believe the intensity of emotion to be extremely volatile. If one is deprived of its experience, then it is hard to internalize when it comes at a rapid pace later on in life. Think of learning anything new when you are older, like my experience with French. The amount of information came in such a deluge that I was only able to internalize so much and the rest is hanging out there waiting for me to notice it. Erik wanted what he was deprived of as a child, as a youth, and as a man. "Such a complicated and compounded situation ... When one is finally given the opportunity to partake we often gorge ourselves; moderation does not exist for fear the chance may never grace our life again." (Quote from Bonds of Children, copyright 2009)

I see Erik as victim and perpetrator both. He has a conscience, it just took awhile to engage. I brought the above concept to light while writing Beyond the Masque and am exploring it again in my series, Bonds of Children. People are fascinating.
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:09 pm

Nicely said Angelsmasque. Possibly being the victim of ridicule all the time made him turn to being the perpetrator. I agree with your quote "When one is finally given the opportunity to partake we often gorge ourselves...etc."

Perhaps comparing himself to Don Juan helped to express his emotions and thought of where he might end up in the long run; h - e- double toothpicks. Remember, Erik said would no one would see his masterpiece, that when he completed it, he'd have it buried with him. Strange! After all that work and time, never to be heard or seen by anyone but Erik. What would it have sounded like? Did he write lyrics to go with the score? Maybe someday we'll know.


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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:19 pm

I see the double-sided aspect of Erik there again, Fay. Why did Erik not want the world to see his masterpiece? Could it be that the hate was too much to share, too overpowering, that Erik wanted to save the world from its influence? His conscience could have been at work here as well. Don Juan may have been the perfect replication of his life in music, to be rehearsed over and over. I, for one, am grateful he made the decision to have it buried with him ... I'm to curious for my own good occasionally, just like Christine. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:55 pm

Let's talk about the publication of Leroux famed novel in France 1910. André Castaigne created five paintings featured in the original publication. This was something I didn't know.

From the following website I will quote a couple of paragraphs explaining a little about these paintings: http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/castaign.htm

'Published by Bobbs-Merrill and luridly titled The Phantom of the Opera, this story by Gaston Leroux has survived the decades and brought the one reminder of Andre Castaigne along with it. There was even a fairly modern (1988) illustrated reprint of the book from Mysterious Press.

One of the very unique aspects of The Phantom is the nature of the plates. There are four of them, one of which is the standard frontispiece opposite the title page. Even this is a trifle different in that it is not bounded by a border, and the image bleeds of the paper at all four edges. The other three plates, however, are printed the width of the book and then folded and turned 90º. So if you were looking at the plate at left, you'd have opened the book and turned it a quarter turn to the right. I've seen this technique used on an occasional basis in a book, but never as the standard method for all the interior plates. Makes for gloriously large images, though.'

For your inspection, here is Apollo's Lyre:



There are more which I will be posting. Please comment. Tell us what you feel when you see this painting.


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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:36 am

No comments? I thought this would enlist a slew of thoughts. These paintings aren't that common and Andre's concept of Erik is perfect. Note the Phantom looking down on the two sweethearts.

Here is one that looks like Christine rushing through the Masquerade. This copy seems extremely worn and not in as good condition as the one above. What do you think? Comments please.

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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:24 pm

I've seen the first painting but not the second.
Even though the first is in better condition, I like the second one the best. Perhaps it's the mood? I'm not sure...

On a different note, has anyone seen this? It's from '05, but it's recently resurfaced on phantomoftheopera.com, and i though I should share.

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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:22 pm

Thanks for sharing snowmoccasin, but not sure of any other purpose of 'Dark Erotica' except what it is. The author of the article wants to write an erotic horror story using POTO as the basis. This has been done as erotica in Collet Gale's Unmasqued and some obscure movies with those insinuations. Actually, the author is ripping up the 2004 film of ALW's POTO.

Looks like the writer from this article was in a bad mood and wanted to bash something and someone. In any event, thank you for sharing. All Phantom related material is welcomed.


********************************

Any other comments on the paintings? I will post the others shortly. The others are even more interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:21 am

I absolutely love these paintings. What a thrill it would be if we could speak to Gaston Leroux today, and really understand where POTO came from. I`d never seen either painting before, but they beautifully capture the moments they represent. I am a little frustrated at the moment, since my hospital treatments have effectively erased many details of the original novel. My next goal is to slowly read through the book, making notes on characters and plots so that I have something to fall back on when the memories escape me the next time Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:52 am

Gabby81, so happy to see you. Perhaps Leroux did speak to
André which inspired these paintings. I had never seen these before either.

Here is an interesting one. Obviously this depicts the Persian and Raoul searching for the lair when the fiery head meets them. Very well done I think even if the copy is worn and creased.



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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:58 am

These are fabulous finds Fay! Andre did an amazing job recreating these scenes!
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:06 am

The following are the last two paintings:

[


This one is the Mask of the Red Death when Erik crashed the masquerade.


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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:44 pm

I love the Red Death one. What a fantastic artist!
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PostSubject: Re: Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie   Today at 5:22 pm

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Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie
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