Leroux's novel vs 2004 movie

I agree. We can hurt the one we love and often do. After awhile I felt for both the men. They to equally love Christine, enough to die for her. We see that in both the film and novel. Such a classic yet tragic story.

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Now let's talk about Dies Irae, Days of Wrath; also known as the Requiem Mass. The film doesn't speak of this at all, however there are two places in the novel which do. You may look them up if you which and tell me how you think it fits in Phantomology.

In Chapter 12:
The walls were all hung with black, but, instead of the white trimmings that usually set off that funereal upholstery, there was an enormous stave of music with the notes of the DIES IRAE, many times repeated.


And in Chapter 22:
Erik sang like the god of thunder, sang a DIES IRAE that enveloped us as in a storm.

The following is a taken from the 1962 Roman Missal. The translation is rough:

1
Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla
Teste David cum Sibylla!

2
Quantus tremor est futurus,
quando judex est venturus,
cuncta stricte discussurus!

3
Tuba mirum spargens sonum
per sepulchra regionum,
coget omnes ante thronum.

4
Mors stupebit et natura,
cum resurget creatura,
judicanti responsura.


1
Day of wrath! O day of mourning!
See fulfilled the prophets' warning,
Heaven and earth in ashes burning!

2
Oh, what fear man's bosom rendeth,
when from heaven the Judge descendeth,
on whose sentence all dependeth.

3
Wondrous sound the trumpet flingeth;
through earth's sepulchers it ringeth;
all before the throne it bringeth.

4
Death is struck, and nature quaking,
all creation is awaking,
to its Judge an answer making.


Now that you've thought about it, and perhaps looked up the aforementioned chapters in the novel and of course puzzled about the poem and its translation, lets listen to what it may have sounded like and imagine Erik playing this on his organ. This may put you in that ancient, Gothic mood...

I gotta tell you....this might be a little much for me to handle at this point. I can totally picture Erik singing this, but to delve into deeper meanings....my brain might not be able to go that far

Then let's just break apart what I've posted.

Dies Irae or Days of Wrath, perhaps Erik felt like doom and gloom most of the time and so this became one of his special songs. The references were only for your convenience. The Latin and its translation was only to evoke inspiration to discuss.

Erik spent most of his life in darkness and so his thoughts went in that direction, from his bedroom dressed as a funeral parlor to his choice of music.

The Requiem Mass was significant in the story. Can you tell how?

I totally agree that this type of music sets the mood for the novel. Imagine living 5 cellars below ground, hiding your entire life because of a deformity you were born with. I'd be pretty morbid too. I know that at the end, Christine made the choice to stay with Erik, which saved the entire opera house from being demolished. Another scenerio of Erik being dark. His life never saw any happiness and joy, so what part of him would want to play light and happy music? The requiem mass is kind of like the soundtrack to Erik's life.

Exactly! After all this, Erik didn't seem so crazy when he let Christine and Raoul go. He knew that such darkness would not suite someone like her. All his life Erik keep this morbid atmosphere around him; speaking of death, darkness and the wrath of a God he alienated himself from.

Think of it, Dies Irae, why did he care if he felt that he and God had no use for each other. Deep inside, Erik knew God existed and would punish him for his sins and yet he chose to harden his heart against God and religion, except for the fact that he wanted to be married in the Madeleine Chapel.

If you recall, he sang, "KYRIE!...KYRIE!...KYRIE ELEISON". Do you know what this means and why it is significant in this discussion?

It indeed was a true act of love that Erik let Christine go. He knew that she could never be happy in his gloomy environment. This all kind of surprises me actually. I never thought of Erik as someone who would believe in God. But yet my search of Kyrie Eleison came back to "Lord Have Mercy". He's asking for forgiveness for the sins he has committed. Often times we see people who have been dealt a difficult hand turn from God and blame him for their problems and for how they are treated because of it. So, for Erik to be asking for God's mercy, maybe this is a change of heart. Maybe Christines love showed him that God does exist, and that before he died he wanted to be forgiven for the sins that he has committed???

Very true, Kyrie Eleison is "Lord Have Mercy"; a phrase my grandmother and mother often used en lieu of a prayer for help.

Christine may have been the reason for what seemed to be a change of heart for Erik, but in truth, if you pin most people like him, they will admit belief in a Higher Authority.

Too bad this was not brought out in any film version. There is so much to Erik to explore.

This is why I wanted to bring out why he frequently used religious music and why he wanted to be married in the Madeleine Chapel. A part of Erik not only believed in God and wanted forgiveness, but probably viewed releasing Raoul and Christine in an effort to set him on the road to redemption.

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Now for the siren. In at least five areas of the novel we find something about a siren.

ie:
Chapter 20:And, above all, shut your ears if you hear the voice singing
under the water, the siren's voice!"


ie:
n Chapter 21:Had I been inclined to superstition, I should have certainly thought
that I had to do with some siren whose business it was to confound
the traveler who should venture on the waters of the house on
the lake.

These are only a couple of quotes. The latter was by the Persian. Obviously, we eventually figure out that Erik is the siren. But why the charades? What is significant in the use of the word 'siren'?

Oooh, interesting. The idea of siren is often tittilating, and the thought of some kind of beautiful woman may be what ultimately sends the men to the depths. And since most people who would be down in the cellars poking around where they shouldn't be, the ruse of a female siren would be more appeasing. Men wouldn't be so interested in Erik singing them songs. But it does show another side of Erik, that he can so cleverly disguise his voice, while singing through a reed, to sound like a beautiful woman.

I loved the fact that this part was left in the silent film version. It showed Erik's deviousness!

For anyone not clear about what a siren was, here is a definition:

In Greek mythology, a sea siren, half woman and half bird, lured sailors to shipwreck along rocky coasts with her irresistible singing, before devouring them.

Odysseus, on the advice of the enchantress Circe, tied himself to the mast of his ship in order to hear the sirens safely, and
plugged his crew's ears with wax.

The three Sirens most written about in Greek Mythology were
Pisinoe, Aglaope and Thelxiepi, all daughters of the river god, Achelous. One played the lyre, another the flute and lastly one sang. Legend has it that Demeter, the goddess of harvest and fertility, turned the Sirens into the half-woman, half-bird creatures when the three failed to save Demeter's daughter, Persephone from the god of the Hades after he kidnapped her.

Having said that, we not only notice that religion does play a big part in Erik's life (this was from an earlier discussion), but so does Greek mythology.

The only Phantom film version that speaks of the siren luring Philippe de Chagny to his death is in the Lon Chaney's 1925 version of The Phantom of the Opera:

So now I'm curious....are there any other film versions that include Phillipe? I know that Lon Chaney's version does, but Herbert Lom's version and Charles Dance's versions don't (and of course the 2004 version doesn't). Philippe doesn't play a pivitol role in the story, so it's an easy part to cut out. It's so interesting that the 1925 version includes him, because it shows us Erik's deceit with the "siren". Even in the novel, Phillipe doesn't have a large role, and could easily be excluded.

Actually, Charles Dance's version did have Philippe instead of Raoul. If you recall, Christine's noble suitor who had directed her to Erik's father (the opera house manager) was Philippe not Raoul.

Other than that, no other version has this character besides the silent film.

You're right, it is easy to cut out his character. All popular Phan Phics leave him out. I feel he had an essential part since we clearly see that he knows his way down to the lair. From this it seems pretty obvious that he's been there before. Giving us the thought that he knows Erik, not as the Opera Ghost, a thing of terror, but something more personal, perhaps a brother?

Here we see Claude Rains as the Phantom in the 1943 version. Lon Chaney, Jr. wanted to play the Phantom as his father had, but Hollywood wanted someone more refined, more of a gentleman, so they got Claude Rains.

I haven't seen the Claude Rains version yet, but I would like to. I guess what I meant about no other version including Philippe was as the brother. As you said, in the Charles Dance version, there was no Raoul. So we are still missing the brother. It is interesting that he so easily found his way down to the lair. We see the difficulties that Raoul and the Persian have getting there, yet Philippe makes it to the lake with ease. The Claude Rains version is the second version I've seen that has Erik being burned by chemicals, not born with the deformity. I think that would play a large role in the Phantom's demeanor. In Leroux's novel, Erik has lived underground his whole life, hiding since birth from society. In these two versions, he would have had a taste of "normal" life, then felt he was forced underground because of his burns. I still haven't seen Robert Englunds version either, it seems very gory to me. It is interesting that this 1943 version has a "sequel" to it. I will have to check these movies out

No other version have Philippe as a in the novel other than the silent version.

The sequel to Claude Rains' Phantom turned out not to be a real sequel. Entitled "The Climax", it starred Boris Karloff as the crazed doctor, Susanna Foster the young diva he fell in love with (somewhat reprising her role as Christine from the 1943 version) and Turhan Bey as her true love in this weird triangle.

Claude Rains could not accept the role due to other commitments, so Boris Karloff took the part. However, it really was a sleeper and a lemon. The little known film didn't even make Youtube.

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You're right, Robert Englunds 1989 version is a bit gory and the only one which show Erik using the services of a lady of the evening. There is no crashing chandelier. Here "Faust" is the plot for this Phantom.

Take a look and see what you think:

Wow wow wow!!! I can't wait to see this movie now. There is so much more to it than the gore that I had seen. It sounds like it actually has a good storyline to it.

It's actually not so bad. Englund is not the romantic type and still reminds me of Freddy Kruger, but not a bad film.

The young man you saw him stringing up was Joseph Buquet. That was a bit messy later on, but nothing any worse than what I'd seen before.

Carlotta losing her head wasn't the hot thing on my list, but still not as bad as some things I've seen.

Here is another clip:

What's really interesting to me, is that Erik looks quite normal for most of film. I know his skin is sewn on and stuff, but many of the scenes you wouldn't have known he was deformed. It seems to be the one movie where there is no "phantom" mask.

No, there is another version were the Phantom wears no mask. In the 1998 Dario Argento's The Phantom of the Opera stars Julian Sands. This Phantom was living in the sewers and raised by telepathic rats. That's right. I said telepathic rats. I understand this was a real stinker.

I think I remembering reading somewhere that people didn't really like this one. Its amazing that there are this many Phantom films though. I guess I have a lot of movie watching to catch up on

The one with Julian Sands I've never seen. You're right, nobody liked it. I don't really care to see this one.

Here is another one with Maximilian Schell as the Phantom in the 1983 version. This wasn't too popular and I have not seen it. Jane Seymour co-stars.

There are so many versions. There are so many that I have yet to see. But here's what I've seen in the order that I enjoyed them:

1. 2004 version with Gerard Butler and Emmy Rossum
2. 1925 Silent version with Lon Chaney
3. 1989 version with Charles Dance
4. 1963 version with Herbert Lom

I think the years are close at least, my memory's not that great. There are so many more versions that I want to get my hands on. I have a feeling that some will be hard to find.

Since we've explored some of the various film versions in comparison to the novel, we see many changes. None are as fascinating as the silent version with Lon Chaney and the last one with Gerard Butler.

Now here's something think about. Why did Erik entitle his precious opera "Don Juan Triumphant"? He thought of himself as Don Juan, but not because he was noted as a great lover or womanizer. Why then?

Well, we have to think that Erik wanted women but wasn't able to find one because of his face. According to the legend, (I'm sure you know this) Don Juan could seduce any woman he wanted, so, perhaps Erik idolized him? Just a theory, but feel free to contradict me.

Snowmoccasin please go on. Elaborate. Do you know the story of Don Juan? How does it figure into the scheme of Erik and his behavior.

I got this off Wikipedia. It's accurate, but the author does a better job of explaining the story than me. Enjoy.


Don Juan is a rogue and a libertine who takes great pleasure in
seducing women and (in most versions) enjoys fighting their champions.
Later, in a graveyard Don Juan encounters a statue of the dead father
of a girl he has seduced, and, impiously, invites him to dine with him;
the statue gladly accepts. The father's ghost arrives for dinner at Don
Juan's house and in turn invites Don Juan to dine with him in the
graveyard. Don Juan accepts, and goes to the father's grave where the
statue asks to shake Don Juan's hand. When he extends his arm, the
statue grabs hold and drags him away, to Hell.


There are tons of books, poems, even musicals on Don Juan. Erik could have been rewriting an existing opera or working on a sequel. Unfortunately, we may never know.

Interesting....I honestly never knew the whole story of Don Juan.