PHILIPPE DE CHAGNY - DID HE KNOW ERIK?- WHY DIDN'T HE WANT CHRISTINE AS A SISTER-IN-LAW?

Philippe de Chagny was the reigning count at the time of the Phantom and his obsession for Christine.

He and Raoul went to the opera all the time and he adored La Sorelli, the lead ballerina. However, he didn't want Raoul to marry Christine. Why? Social status?

When Christine disappeared for the last time and Raoul went with the Persian to look for her, Philippe took one of the boats up to the Phantom's lair. How did he know where to go? Had he been there before?

Something to think about.

Looks like no on is interested in Philippe. I suppose we are only interested in Erik, Christine and Raoul.

Hello! Anyone want to discuss Philippe?

Philippe is a very interesting character, especially how he almost always gets left out of stage and movie productions of the story.

Social status most likely was a huge issue with Philippe when it came to Raoul's intention to marry Christine. In his eyes his brother would have been marrying far below himself and below what he could have gotten. Think of all the grand, rich, beautiful, social butterflies Raoul could have married instead, thuse alligning the family with some other powerful families.

How well did Philippe know Christine? Probably very little or not at all. What reason would he have to not believe poor Christine might have manipulated his sweet, innocent little brother into proposing? He most likely considered her a manipulative social climber out to use and exploit his brother and entire family. It's hard to like someone you believe so low of.

I don't think Philippe knew Erik or where the house was, instead he knew that his brother would have rushed off to rescue Christine and Philippe, dutiful brother that he was, rushed off after Raoul without really knowing where Raoul had gone. Philippe wandered the Opera House's underground until he came to the lake. At that point, it would have made perfect sense to go see what was on the other side, wouldn't it?

Good points Empy. Philippe is usually left out of Phan fics and most film versions. I believe Lon Chaney's silent version was the only one which had Philippe.

You are right about social status. Recall the statement made by him in Leroux's novel? Since he fancied La Sorelli, he said something like it was all righ to play, but not marry them. I am paraphrasing, but it was something like that.

Perhaps you are right about him just wandering around underground and stumbled upon the lair, but somehow, I may disagree a little. Since the underground was a labyrinth don't you think it might not be easy to stumble across? Just at thought.

No, it probably wasn't easy at all. Though, I expect more than a few of the workers at the Opera House had found it at least once before. Perhaps he got directions from someone?

How Philippe ended up there really is a question mark in the book. I wonder if Leroux left it wide open because he thought it best for us to draw our own conclusions on the subject or because he considered it not worth explaining.

There are so many unanswered question in the book. I wish we could have asked Leroux.

I think Philippe had been there before. Just being the devil's advocate to keep the discussion rolling.

I've heard that suggestion made before, that Philippe somehow knew the phantom. Is there anything other than his appearance at the lake that suggests Philippe had been there before?

I think Philippe over heard Christine tell Raoul about or heard someone else talk about a lake and might have put it together but how he found it i dont know and we might never know does any one know if Leroux made notes about his book while he was writing and stuff maybe if there are notes or something of the sort written by the author himself we might know alot of the unanswered questions about the story

Those are all good points. I remember in the book was that he knew the way down to the lair when Raoul and the Persian got lost and fell into the torture chamber.

And if you recall the Persian scolding Erik near the end of the book accusing him of killing Philippe. They talked as if they knew him as more than just a distant royal.

I often wondered if Leroux had notes or something he'd copied from some documents, or even who he talked to. I wonder if any of that info is on the Internet?

Now you have my interest peaked! I'm only about half way through Leroux's novel, so I haven't gotten to much of what you're speaking about. But I'm anxious to, to try and draw some conclusions.

What a wonderful gift to the world it would be if Leroux had left notes or journals that may shed some light on his work.

But if what we think is true, and Philippe was Raoul, then obviously he would know where it was since Christine told him!

Please remember the lair was nestled in a labyrinth, an underground maze. This was not easy to find. Telling someone would deem quite difficult. Showing them would be better, but still not fool proof.

I've read the original story several times. Take another look. Most people in that day and age were superstitious and would not have ventured to search for the Phantom as we see in what the police told the Persian in Leroux's account.

Ok, ok, back up here. Snowmoccasin, Phillippe was Raoul??? What did I miss. I see to recall seeing that in another forum, but I didn't investigate, since I hadn't finished the book. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but do they ever mention exactly how Phillipe died? To me I just assumed something with the lake and siren, but I know I saw somewhere that he had commited suicide. And now he and his brother are reversed! So much information

I'm hoping to find an answer to the theory of Raoul and Phillipe changing places. If someone knows and can fill me, I would be very grateful!

I was hoping someone besides me would throw out a thought, but they can post after me.

According the Leroux, Erik claimed Philippe slipped and fell, hitting his head and drowned. Remember, this happened when Raoul and Christine disappeared. The Count was searching for his brother. The electric alarm goes off to warn Erik of an intruder. He goes out to check and returns soaking wet, only to say later that Philippe's death was an accident.

Think for a moment. Erik was playing the siren when he nearly drowned the Persian. With Christine in hysterics, Raoul and the Persian in the cellar with the barrels, he may not have realized what he was doing and killed the Count.

Another thought, how did Philippe know where the lair was? He may have been there before.

Some speculate that Philippe and Raoul have been switched in the story.

On a Chagny family tree Carrie Hernandex had on her site before she took it down, it showed that the elder son was named Eric, the next was Philippe then somewhere down the line Hubert would have bee the age we think of as Raoul and this Raoul was a baby.

Was Philippe and Raoul one in the same? I think not. Was Hubert really the Vicount and not Raoul? Only God knows.

Ok, lots of info here. The only reason I kind of believed Erik, was that it was just before he was dying, and he seemed sincere. But, who knows, one way or the other.

As for Phillipe finding the lake, the only idea I have is Raoul would have told him. Do we know a lot of the path that comes from the rue Scribe? Maybe it's much easier that the way the Persian and Raoul came.

And I totally don't get how Phillipe and Raoul could have switched. Christine would have known, wouldn't she? And I'm not talking reality here, though I do believe the story to be true. I'm strictly asking Leroux's novel wise. And I didn't know there was an Eric and Hubert! I'll have to do some more reading of the fact-based real or not thread.

At the time Philippe went looking for Raoul was the same time he and Christine disappeared. Raoul had never been below the opera house before, therefore he could not have told his brother anything.

The genealogy for the Chagny family on Carrie's site is in the LDS genealogy building in Salt Lake City. However, some say you have to watch the spelling of the name. There was a Chagny and a Changy. Have I confusled you yet?

Dear Lord I am in heaven! Philippe de Chagny is my favorite of all literary characters and I do have answers to many of the questions above yet...

.... contractually I can't discuss them!

The balance of my series is based on Philippe de Chagny, who he was, who he was in the role of the Opera House mystery and did he or didn't he know Erik. I can't speak of things that would be specific to The Madrigals, but I can add my insights historically. Book two in the series, ABENDLIED, is slotted for an October 2009 release that that is the book that had Philippe's history in it.

Leroux describes him as a bit haughty toward men and overly kind toward women, yet a man with irreproachable conscience and great heart. It was that line which caught my attention. Here is a man born and raised in the height of France's nobility and growing old in the days when titles were fossils. Extremely powerful, extremely wealthy--arrogance comes with the territory. Yet he had scruples, that "irreproachable conscience" Leroux wrote about. A firm sense of right and wrong, from a man who many view as a playboy? From a man who many see as the evil empire for not permitting his younger brother to marry for love?

Shock. Horror. Marry for love? I think many need to cut Philippe de Chagny some slack!

Why everyone married for love during the time Philippe grew up. Note the sarcasm folks . Families, heck empires, were built on marriages of property and money. If you had 600 years of tradition breathing down your neck you would probably marry for gain as well and keep that mistress on the side for emotional love. Sure the guy had his freedom to visit salons, travel, and do what he wanted when he wanted. But what of his property? The mines? The forges? The duty to his country? Taking the reins of one of the most powerful families when barely a young man? How does that shape you and your view of what should and should not be done for the good of your name and title. When would you dare break tradition? Let the man love and live. Let him sow some oats, get his yaya's out... whatever you wish to call it.

Yet in all the heartache he caused Raoul in the original novel, I honestly do not think Philippe went charging down in the vaults of the Garnier to do anything to prevent Raoul from marrying Christine. So why did he go down there to begin with and lose his life in the process?

Read my series and on that I will say no more.

I will proudly say the Monsieur le Comte de Chagny is my favorite character. History in MADRIGAL is used as "wallpaper". It is in the background to give the book flavor, unlike my Austrian historicals where I history is the plot itself. I loved learning about the nobles of this time period. I adored crafting my version of Raoul and his attitude toward life, women, roles and society. You will see a man trying to live up to his brother's conscience, yet pulled down by his own battle between pride and prejudice.

And there is a lot of prejudice in Leroux. He wrote Phantom as a statement on the class system in France just as much as he wrote it to make a commentary that society fears what it does not understand. Heaven forbid we befriend someone who does not look, talk or act like us...

Most do not expect someone to like Philippe. I dare say if I ever met him in person--he would have met his match.

This thread has been quiet for a long time. There is so much to know with Philippe. Obviously he thinks it's okay to play with the performers but not have a serious relationship.

Any comments?