Phantom by Susan Kay

I don't see how this book can cheer you up. its so dark and full of sorrow. I do love the book but i find it more depressing than most.

well, first of all, like I said before, I love Erik's sence of humor. And, the sorrow puts things in perspective for me, or sounds like what I'm going through.

Interesting! I have to agree with Nichol. It's so depressing, but then, if your life is in need of something darker...

Erik's sense of humor? You mean like when he took some of the gems from the shah's chair?

Interesting!

yeah. or that part when he says somthing like "hell is full of burning boats. I daresay that's what makes it so bloody hot." he'd be a good guy to have around in a tight spot! *hugs KayErik*

Guess I forgot that one. It's been a while since I've read it. I suppose my mind was cluttered with all I didn't like. My bad!

I do think Erik had a sense of humor, and his brand of sarcasm has crept into my own work. "It's very difficult to be a murderer without killing people from time to time."

PhantomnessFay, I don't think you offended anyone and I, for one, am very much enjoying this conversation. There's a line between discussion and negativity, and I don't think either of us has crossed it. These are ALL valid points and any work of lit/art/film/theater is going to arouse totally different opinions. And I was totally a dewey-eyed teen when I read this. I freely admit that that's what's at the heart of my regard for it.

As such, YestonErik, I used to be cheered by Kay when I was younger. There's a thing I've named "vicarious emotional masochism" for the feeling it gave me; my life wasn't awful, but I was a little cut-off from my peers, and the absurd pain of the book would jump-start something in me. I liked feeling sad about it, because it was a sadness that was contained in fiction. I don't know if that makes any sense at all.

The parts which displayed humor indeed brought relief from the depression. Perhaps I think of all the ways his life could have been shown, with all it's horror, but different from the way Kay did it.

After having read both the original and this one, I still hold to Leroux's. Nothing in all the pain and agony Kay showed Erik experiencing still left him out of character to me.

Again, I suppose I'm a purist. I looked for something close to Leroux's Erik, but fell to disappointment.

I must say his relationship with Nadir I could accept. It seem genuine and something I would expect.

Slightly off the main subject, but not, has anyone actually heard of the use of the Punjab lasso any place save Phantom and its related literature?

I read Leroux for Leroux, and I like when authors try to recreate that character. But I also enjoy other takes; we've been through this territory before, though, obviously! Some are going to be more acceptable to different people.

I don't think there's any such thing as a "pubjab lasso"--I believe Leroux made that up out of whole cloth, like a lot of his background elements. Sounds exotic, though, doesn't it? Leonard Wolf's footnote addresses this, I believe. He's found evidence a different, though similar device which operates not as a lasso but with weights on the end so it flips around the victim's neck, strangling him. But I don't have the book with me at the moment, so I can't swear to it.

Well that's what I was thinking. It wasn't a noose. It had to be flicked out and wrapped around the victim's neck. Then again, I'm no expert of weapons or ways to kill. ***shudder***

Leonard Wolf, was he one who did a translation of POTO?

Thanks!

But a lasso is, by definition, a noose. A loop of rope that tightens when pulled. The sort of thing with weights on the end is called a bola. I think Leroux made up the Pubjab Lasso to make Erik more exotic--it probably didn't matter much, to him, whether it was real or not.

Leonard Wolf did a translation, with footnotes. It's called The Essential Phantom of the Opera and it's useful. It's not as thorough as I want it to be, and the translation is pretty good. Frankly, I'd pick and choose from the various translations for various lines, because each of them contains language I find preferable in certain spots.

Though this is all rather off topic for Kay!

Actually not if we are talking about the Punjab lasso which is mentioned in Kay's book. Erik could have sent a noose over the victims head. Quite possible.

That section in Kay's book does give account of his murderous role in Persia which I felt could have been true. That's what had me thinking about the lasso.

Interesting!

The thing about Kay's treatment of Persia is that she had to find a section of Persian history where it made sense. I mean, she had to work out the dates and see who was ruling and added real-life characters to make the political situation viable. I'm not saying it's truefacts history, but I like how she included the religious issues (the Babi dissidents) and the assassination of the advisor (Mirza Taqui Khan?) and the Shah (Nadir al-din)'s mother. The specificity--the fact she could find a place to work him into a pre-existing situation--was interesting.

Agreed. This she did quite well. It seemed believable. In this she did very well.

I remember when I first got the book, I really wanted to see how she told Erik's story in Persia. Actually, it would be nice to see illustations for that section.

I think there should be more written about Erik's time in Persia. It's pretty rich territory that hasn't been mined to death yet.

That would be intresting. More of Erik's life in Persia. Sounds like a good opening for a new book. my daroga, would venture a stab at it?

Oh, I want to. Someday, I will. I have to finish some other stuff, first (my nonfiction exploration of POTO versions) but I'd definitely love to publish some POTO fic one day. My roommate wants to make a movie of Erik in Persia--not that either of us makes movies, understand. She wants me to make the definitive film version of Leroux.

Frankly, despite its failings, I'd love to see a Kay movie. I just think it'd be dramatic and angsty and awesome, though maybe not good.

I want a movie, too... but Hollywood'll kill it, I'm sure.

If it's pitched to the right people a movie would be made. You just have to assure the person putting up the money that will get their money back.

I would love to see a movie done on Susan Kay's Phantom, and yet I don't think they could do it justice.
I don't see it possible, being able to capture Erik's pure ugliness and horror.
For instance, in the 2004 film, they call that a defomity? For me, it needs to be obvious why he had been shunned and hated all of his life...not looking like he had been sunburned.

Also, Erik's voice brought tears to his mother's eyes even when he was a baby...it was his only beauty. I can't imagine a voice that angelic and beautiful being captured in a film, can you?

I thought this was the most amazing book because it went into such depth into young Erik, and we are given an idea as to why he acts like the cold-blooded, heartless and desperate man we see. My copy of the book is hardcover and red with a golden mask on the front. There is a woman, who I am assuming to be Christine, kissing the mask and holding it close to her. I was looking around on different book websites and I haven't seen my version anywhere. Does anyone else have the same copy as me?

Is this a picture on the cover? My copy doesn't have any picture like that.

My book does but mine's in bad condition. When I got it the pages were about to fall out.

Mine is a newer publication. I got it in 2006. When was yours published?

1991 what adress was yours printed at? mine was 666 Fifth Avanue NY,NY

I'll have to look at my copy when I get home. At work at the moment.

I haven't read this one yet either ( gasp) i would really like to but is it like WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay depressing? and Erik's drug addiction how bad is that. I mean i don't want to read about some druggie. You know i just want to read about Erik