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 WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?

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my daroga
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:01 pm

Since Erik invokes Bluebeard himself, and compares himself to him, the implication is that if Christine takes the key she's risking death. I also see the "locked room" as Erik's face beneath the mask; once a woman sees it, she is his and cannot leave. Of course, the stories don't end the same way because Erik isn't tricked, he's gentled. And his identification with Bluebeard is not complete.

I guess we'd have to define insanity. I'd say that killing with impunity and talking about oneself in the third person denote something a bit "off." That doesn't mean there wasn't good in him or that his repentance wasn't genuine. I just don't think his actions are those of a sane man.
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:14 pm

Yes, well, after being on my own for so long, I think I might also start talkin about myself in the third person, as a way of retaliating toward the loneliness, and with the very intension of trying to stay sane....

But I guess thats just me.... Maybe I'm not entirely sane as it is, Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:17 pm

But don't you think that after being on your own for so long, you might become insane? Not because you started out that way, but as a result?
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:24 pm

If I had NO contact with humankind, at all, ever, I think I might, but, I think, in hearing other people talk, and seeing them interact with each other, I might be saved from becoming insane, even if I don't interact with them, my great imagination might help me cling onto sanity, somehow.

But, I've never been in such a situation, thus, I can't really say for sure....
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:51 am

Alienation could drive one insane. With no human contact, nothing to occupy the mind but whatever you can do to entertain yourself, such as frighten the ballet rats and stagehands, make mockery of the managers, and extort money from them. All this led to permantly removing those who may threaten to find your lair or take over the job you promised to Mms. Giry. Madness, pure and simple.

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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:01 pm

There's a reason they use isolation as torture/punishment. I guess I tend to see eccentricity as harmless. Some madness is harmless, too. But when it comes to hurting people, combined with attempting to impose your vision of the world on a reality that will not bear it, I start to see insanity.
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:50 pm

You're right, some madness can be harmless. But in this case, poor unhappy Erik took the liberty of doing some evil things. This was why the Persian said if he didn't remind Erik, he'd forget you helped him. This didn't result from being a certain age. Apparently he'd been this way ever since the Persian had known him.

Still hand all, I feel if Christine had left with Raoul with he first asked her should would have escaped him without any further delays. I don't believe Erik would have left the opera house to look for her. I really don't, especially since he'd have to hunt down Raoul. The opera house became a safe place for him.


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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:10 am

Yes, I agree, if Christine had just left with Raoul when he asked, it would have made everything less complicated.

Do you think she could have guessed that Erik would "spirit" her away during (or after) the performance, and that she somehow wanted to use that time to say good-bye?

Might Christine have been a tiny bit, not as sane as she should be, because of the trauma of everything, including her father's death, and the sudden appearance of the Angel of Music?
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:34 am

Apparently, part of Christine wanted to be with Erik, whether as a daughter or wife, I don't think even she was sure. This made her judgement shaky and her emotions confused.

I'm sure part of her knew if she left the opera house, she might never see Erik again. This may be why she told Raoul she wanted to give one last performance for Erik, to say good-bye. Upon on the roof, she had to know Erik overheard. Remember she kept telling Raoul they were alone, that Erik would come up there. With him giving long sighs and blazing eyes, no way she didn't know he was up there.

To answer the question, no I don't think Christine was insane, but her mixed emotions and desire to keep some sort of relationship with Erik dictated her actions.

What do you think? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:19 am

Again, you'd have to define insanity which is hard (especially in fiction, when the author might make choices based on DRAMA), but I think Christine was Not All There. As cited before, the never never land her father kept her in--remember him weaving a new reality with his violin, keeping her naive and sheltered?--left her just a little bit broken when he died. I'm not going to venture an actual diagnosis, but I would personally rather believe she believed in the Angel of Music because she was slightly unhinged than because she was that stupid.
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:27 am

I agree. I didn't say she was insane, well, maybe I did, but that's not what I meant. I mean, she wasn't exactly thinking straight, being that she was kept, sort of, in a bubble. And she wasn't prepared for the reality of life when her father died. I think she might have seen Erik as the continuance of her "fairy tale" world, and that she might have been reluctant to let go of it at the moment that Raoul asked her to go with him.
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:54 pm

I agree. She may have also been in one of those situation where she thought of the worst possible scenario, part of her probably wanted to leave, and the other half was looking for an excuse to stay, so she may have thought it was possible Erik would follow her Question (I'm not saying he would but stress does a lot to people)

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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:07 am

I think that Christine loved Erik. But she also loved Raoul.. or at least the sweet child-hood memories of him. I think had she chose Erik she would have been totally free to come and go as she pleased not be a prisoner to him. In Leroux erik expresses his dream of just being a regular man living in a ordinary house taking his wife out just like everyone else. They probably would have been perfectly happy. But think about what Christine would have to go through? Erik obviously couldn't go out so people would be nagging her about who her husband was or if he was even real. With Raoul she had the comforts that only riches could bring the security of a stable yet musicless marriage. She couldn't continue music the way she had with Erik. It woudln't of been acceptable in Raoul's society.
i don't remember who said this but someone commented on Erik being the older more mature and eccentric choice. I have a question, how much older was Erik? A couple of years? In ALW movie at the end of Don Juan Triumphant when Christine tears off Erik's mask he looks VERY old. Is it becase of his deformity or is he a very old man stalking a young girl?
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:47 am

The ALW movie is totally different that the Leroux novel. The side of his face where he looks old, it's actually his "terrible deformity" It is believed that Erik was around 50 years old at the time he was stalking Christine who was probably 18-20 since Raoul was only 20yrs old himself.

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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:32 pm

that does make sense. But then confuses me why are people still today ( me included) wishing for a happily ever after ending for Erik and Christine? maybe its because we don't realize how old he would have been and how much that would be like marrying your own father ( eww) But age has nothing to do with anything really i suppose. Even if Erik were closer to Christines age, he still would've been slightly off mentally.
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:28 am

True, unconditional love has no boundries. Therefore, age doesn't matter. However, in reality, we do have to take a look at the real Erik. As previously stated, he had a severe mental problem. This is not easy to deal with.

Poor unhappy Erik! What a Face What a Face What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:56 am

exactly poor unhappy Erik (sniff sniff) Sad Unfortunetly the world was ( and is) not very understanding. Unconditional love or not Erik and Christine would have been so... ridiculed in society
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:45 pm

my daroga wrote:
Again, you'd have to define insanity which is hard (especially in fiction, when the author might make choices based on DRAMA), but I think Christine was Not All There. As cited before, the never never land her father kept her in--remember him weaving a new reality with his violin, keeping her naive and sheltered?--left her just a little bit broken when he died. I'm not going to venture an actual diagnosis, but I would personally rather believe she believed in the Angel of Music because she was slightly unhinged than because she was that stupid.

I agree with you and I like the way you put "Not All There" to describe Christine. I have also thought that Christine wasn't always in the right frame of mind in the story (not that's she's crazy but she's not really in the real world if that makes sense.)
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PostSubject: Re: WHY DIDN'T CHRISTINE LEAVE SOONER WITH RAOUL-DID SHE LOVE ERIK?   Today at 5:19 pm

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